The Parts Within Us: An Interview with Richard Schwartz, Creator of Internal Family Systems
艾米·比安科利-2022 年 7 月 16 日
Amy Biancolli -July 16, 2022
Richard Schwartz 博士是Internal Family Systems的創建者，這是一種拒絕“單一思維(mono-mind)”概念的治療模型，轉而採用更具包容性、多方面的方法，將每個人視為不同“部分”的承載者”——每一個都是由過去的經驗塑造的。這些部分可能包括受過創傷的內在兒童或其他“流放者(exiles)”，以及“保護者(protectors)”、“消防員(firefighters)”或類似的不同角色。
Richard Schwartz, Ph.D., is the creator of Internal Family Systems, a therapeutic model that rejects the notion of a “mono-mind” in favor of a more inclusive, manifold approach that regards each person as a bearer of distinct “parts”—each one shaped by past experiences. Such parts might include traumatized inner children or other “exiles,” as well as “protectors,” “firefighters,” or similarly distinct roles.
Schwartz 最初接受系統性家庭治療的培訓，獲得了博士學位。來自普渡大學，並於 1980 年代開始開發 IFS。他出版了五本書，包括《內部家庭系統治療》、《許多思想、一個自我：範式徹底轉變的證據》，以及最近出版的《沒有壞的部分：用內部家庭系統模型治癒創傷和恢復整體性》。
Originally trained in systemic family therapy, Schwartz earned his Ph.D. from Purdue University and started developing IFS in the 1980s. He’s published five books, including Internal Family Systems Therapy, Many Minds, One Self: Evidence for a Radical Shift in Paradigm, and, most recently, No Bad Parts: Healing Trauma and Restoring Wholeness with The Internal Family Systems Model.
施瓦茨曾在芝加哥伊利諾伊大學和西北大學任教多年，目前在哈佛醫學院任教。有關 IFS 的更多信息，請參見ifs-institute.com。
Schwartz, who taught for many years at the University of Illinois at Chicago and Northwestern University, is currently on the faculty at Harvard Medical School. For more on IFS, see ifs-institute.com.
為了空間和清晰度，對以下採訪進行了編輯。
The following interview has been edited for space and clarity.
Amy Biancolli：您通常如何向某人描述內部家庭系統？例如，結合各個部分的概要和每個人都有一個內部家庭的概念？
Amy Biancolli: How would you normally describe Internal Family Systems to someone? Incorporating, for instance, a rundown of the various parts and the concept of everybody having an internal family?
理查德·施瓦茨： IFS 是一種不同的理解心靈的範式，它說不是病態的標誌，而是心靈的本質，我稱之為“部分”——其他系統稱之為亞人格或自我狀態，或聲音。在多重人格障礙中，他們被稱為改變者。擁有它們是心的本性。
Richard Schwartz: IFS is a different paradigm for understanding the mind that says that rather than being a sign of pathology, it’s the nature of the mind to have what I call “parts”—what other systems call sub-personalities, or ego states, or voices. In multiple personality disorder, they’re called alters. It’s the nature of the mind to have them.
我們生來如此——我們生來如此，因為它們都是有價值的。我們需要他們的資源才能在生活中實現並茁壯成長。創傷和依戀傷害，以及類似的事情，迫使他們脫離自然有價值的狀態，進入可能具有破壞性的角色，有時在你生命中的某個時刻是必要的。但是他們經常被凍結在那裡，在創傷期間及時凍結，他們認為你仍然是五歲。他們認為他們仍然需要做他們當時需要做的事情。
We’re born that way—and we’re born that way because they’re all valuable. We need their resources to make it in life and to thrive. Trauma and attachment injuries, and things like that, forced them out of their naturally valuable states into roles that can be destructive and sometimes were necessary at some point in your life. But they often are frozen back there, frozen in time during a trauma, and they think you’re still five years old. They think they still need to do what they needed to do back then.
我最近寫了一本名為《No Bad Parts 》的書，試圖證明這一點：我們認為的許多精神病診斷和疾病實際上只是許多這些保護部分的活動。
I recently wrote a book called No Bad Parts, which was trying to make that case: that so many things we think of as psychiatric diagnoses and illnesses are really just the activities of a lot of these protective parts.
當你這樣受苦時，有些部分是非常脆弱和年輕的——通常被稱為“內心的孩子”——他們是最受傷害的部分，因為他們是最敏感的。他們承擔了我們所謂的無價值、恐懼或情感痛苦的“負擔”。當他們以這種方式承受負擔時，當他們帶著這些感覺時，他們就沒有那麼有趣了。
When you suffer that way, some parts are very vulnerable and young—what often are called “inner children”—and they’re the ones that get hurt the most, because they’re the most sensitive. They take on what we call the “burdens” of worthlessness, or terror, or emotional pain. When they get burdened that way, when they carry those feelings, they’re not so much fun to be around.
在他們受傷、害怕或羞愧之前，他們很可愛——因為他們是各種天真、頑皮、創造力和開放性。但是在他們受傷之後，現在他們可以有能力壓倒我們，把我們拉回那些場景，讓我們感受到我們不想再感受到的東西。我們往往想把它們鎖在裡面，在裡面的地下室、洞穴或深淵裡，然後繼續前進，沒有意識到我們正在遠離我們最寶貴的品質，只是因為它們受到了傷害。
Before they get hurt, or scared, or ashamed, they’re lovely—because they’re all kinds of innocence, and playfulness, and creativity, and openness. But after they get hurt, now they can have the power to overwhelm us and pull us back into those scenes and make us feel the things we didn’t want to feel again. We tend to want to lock them away inside, in inner basements or caves or abysses, and just move on, not realizing that we’re moving on from our most precious qualities just because they got hurt.
那些我們稱之為“流放者”的人，因為他們被關在裡面，而我們有一些部分會盡最大努力讓他們保持這種狀態。當你有很多流放者時，你會感覺更脆弱，世界也會感覺更危險，因為有很多事情可以觸發他們，如果他們被觸發，那麼他們就有力量壓倒你。
Those we call “exiles,” because they’re locked up inside, and we have parts that do their best to try and keep them that way. When you have a lot of exiles, you feel more delicate, and the world feels more dangerous, because so many things could trigger them, and if they get triggered, then they have the power to overwhelm you.
然後很多其他部分被迫扮演“保護者”角色，其中一些人試圖通過管理你的生活來保護你，這樣流放者就不會被觸發。他們傾向於讓你與人際關係保持一定的距離，或者讓你看起來很完美，這樣你就不會被拒絕，或者讓你取得很多成就，這樣你就可以得到榮譽來對抗無價值，或者照顧周圍的每個人你讓他們依賴你。有很多不同的“經理”角色。
Then a lot of other parts are forced into “protector” roles, some of whom try to protect you by managing your life so that the exiles don’t get triggered. They’ll tend to want to keep you a certain distance from relationships, or make you look perfect so that you don’t get rejected, or make you achieve a lot so you get accolades to counter the worthlessness, or take care of everybody around you so that they depend on you. There are a lot of different “manager” roles.
但儘管盡了最大的努力，你的流放有時還是會被觸發。所以還有另一組零件在待命，如果你突然感到一陣恐懼或痛苦，他們會立即採取行動，以沖動的方式，以反應的方式將你帶走。他們拼命想讓你高於流放者的情感火焰，或者分散你的注意力，直到他們把自己燒掉。我們稱這些為“消防員”，因為他們正在與流放者所攜帶的這些原始情感火焰作鬥爭。
But despite the best efforts, still, your exiles get triggered sometimes. So there’s another set of parts who are on standby, and if you suddenly feel a wave of terror or pain, they’ll immediately go into action to take you away in an impulsive way, in a reactive way. They’re desperately trying to get you higher than the flames of emotion of the exiles, or distract you until they burn themselves out. We call those “firefighters,” because they’re fighting these raw flames of emotion that the exiles carry.
這就是內部領土的非常簡單的地圖。
So that’s the very simple map to the inner territory.
除了所有這些——也許是 IFS 最重要的發現——每個人身上都有一種本質，就在這些部分的表面之下，當它們打開空間時，它就會彈出——並包含所有這些美妙的我稱之為“C字”的品質，比如冷靜、好奇、同情和清晰。那不是像其他人那樣的“部分”。當我問“那是什麼？”時，客戶就是這麼說的。他們會說，“那更像是我自己，那不是一部分。” 所以我們稱之為“自我”。
In addition to all of that—and probably the most important discovery of IFS—is that there is also a kind of essence in everybody that’s just beneath the surface of these parts, such that when they open space, it pops out—and contains all these wonderful what I call “C-word” qualities, like calm and curiosity and compassion and clarity. That is not a “part” like the others. That’s what clients said when I asked, “What is that?” They’d say, “That’s more myself, that’s not a part.” So we call that “the Self.”
事實證明，每個人都有。它不能被破壞，它就在這些部分的表面之下——所以當它們打開空間時，那個“自我”就會出現，知道如何治愈，知道如何幫助這些部分轉化，知道如何治愈外部關係。很多工作都是為了訪問它而設計的，然後當人們在那個空間中時，開始修復這些部分。
It turns out that everybody has that. It can’t be damaged, and it’s just beneath the surface of these parts—so that when they open space, that “Self” emerges and knows how to heal, and knows how to help these parts transform, and knows how to heal external relationships. A lot of the work is designed to access that, and then when people are in that space, start to heal these parts.
Biancolli：如果您能描述 IFS 與通常的方法、通常的治療方法、通常的生物醫學範式有何不同：這有何不同？它有什麼區別？
Biancolli: If you could describe how IFS differs from the usual approach, the usual treatment, the usual biomedical paradigm: How is this different? What distinguishes it?
施瓦茨：是的，所以有幾種不同的範式，一個是這些診斷類別是疾病的症狀，它們應該被視為疾病的症狀，而不是被認為有任何不同。當您患有疾病時，您會尋找藥物，因此精神病學一直非常非常注重藥物治療。然後另一個範式是需要糾正某種認知扭曲，因此建立 CBT 試圖挑戰圍繞該問題的扭曲信念。
Schwartz: Yes, so there are a couple of different paradigms, one being that these diagnostic categories are symptoms of disease, and that they should be just treated as such, and not thought to be anything different than that. When you have a disease, you look for a medication, and so psychiatry has been very, very medication-focused. Then the other paradigm is that it’s some kind of cognitive distortion that needs to be corrected, and so CBT is set up to try and challenge the distorted beliefs that surround the issue.
從我的角度來看，他們都沒有達到驅動這些活動的人們正在發生的事情的邊緣水平。
From my point of view, neither of them get to the limbic level of what is going on with people, which drives these activities.
Biancolli：您認為 IFS 挖掘得更深一些，還是以不同的方式構建問題？例如，它與 CBT 有何區別？
Biancolli: Do you think that IFS digs a little deeper, or frames the issues differently? What distinguishes it from CBT, for instance?
施瓦茨：嗯，與其把你恐懼的那部分想像成一種扭曲的認知，我們認為它是你年輕的一部分，被困在一個可能在你童年時期非常可怕的地方。
Schwartz: Well, rather than thinking of the part of you that’s phobic, for example, as just a distorted cognition, we think of it as a young part of you that’s stuck in a place that’s probably pretty scary in your childhood.
現在，這是一個巨大的差異，因為如果你認為它是一種認知扭曲，你就會與之爭論或試圖揭露它。這就是所謂的暴露療法，你試圖讓這個人面對他們的恐懼並以這種方式脫敏。這對許多人來說是一種折磨，而且往往不起作用。
Now, that’s a huge difference, because if you think of it as a cognitive distortion, you’re going to argue with it or try and expose it. There’s this whole thing called exposure therapy, where you try to have the person face their fear and desensitize that way. Which is torturous for many people, and often doesn’t work.
所以相反，如果你認為它是你的一個年輕部分，因為它被困在一個可怕的地方而仍然非常害怕，那麼你就會敞開心扉。你將專注於它，讓它告訴你過去發生了什麼讓你如此害怕——把自己看作一個孩子，而你正處於一個可怕的地方。它一直在等你來拯救它。
So instead, if you think of it as a young part of you that’s still very scared because it’s stuck in a terrible place, then you’re going to open your heart. You’re going to focus on it, ask it to show you what happened to get so scared in the past—to see yourself as a child, and you’re in a scary place. It’s been waiting for you to come and rescue it.
一旦感覺你真的明白髮生了什麼，以及它有多糟糕，那麼我會讓你進去和它在一起，回到那裡，就像那個孩子當時需要某人一樣——直到那個孩子準備好離開與你。我們實際上可以從它們過去卡住的地方找回這些部分。一旦發生這種情況，我們可以幫助他們減輕恐懼，因為現在他們相信自己是安全的，不再需要它。我們有一個我們稱之為“減輕負擔”的過程，我們幫助這些部分放棄他們從這些場景中獲得的極端信念和情感。
Once it feels like you really understand what happened, and how bad it was, then I would have you go in and be with it, back there, in the way that that child needed somebody at the time—until that child was ready to leave with you. We could literally retrieve these parts from where they’re stuck in the past. Once that happens, we can help them unload the fear, because now they trust they’re safe, and they don’t need it anymore. We have a process we call “unburdening” where we help these parts give up the extreme beliefs and emotions they got from these scenes.
到那時，就像是解除了詛咒，他們會轉變為自然健康、有價值的狀態。然後我們可以引入所有試圖將其鎖定或以某種方式處理它的“保護者”，以確保他們不再需要這樣做。他們不需要使人恐懼或任何事情。並幫助他們擔任新角色。所以這只是一個完全不同的範式。
At which point, it’s like a curse has been lifted, and they’ll transform into their naturally healthy, valuable states. Then we can bring in all the “protectors” who were trying to keep it locked up—or in some way, deal with it—to see they don’t need to do that anymore. They don’t need to make the person phobic, or anything. And help them into new roles as well. So it’s just a totally different paradigm.
Biancolli：重申一下：正如你所說，人們擁有的許多部分可能是“流放者”，可能是一個受到創傷的 8 歲兒童。然後你就有了“保護者”，他們試圖確保孩子不會處於觸發孩子的情況。然後你有所有這些其他部分試圖基本上應對發生在他們身上的所有事情。
Biancolli: Just to reiterate: Some of the many parts that people have might be, as you said, an “exile,” which could be an 8-year-old child who was traumatized. Then you’ve got the “protectors,” who are trying to make sure that child isn’t going to be in a situation where the child is triggered. Then you’ve got all these other pieces that are trying to basically cope with all that happened to them.
施瓦茨：對。
Schwartz: Right.
Biancolli：這是否歸結為缺乏判斷力？它邀請人們說，“好吧，你體內的某個地方有這個孩子。幾乎是從遠處看這個孩子，帶著同情心，不加評判地看著這個孩子？看看這些可能更困難的其他部分，也沒有判斷力？缺乏判斷力是一個很大的原因嗎？
Biancolli: Does it boil down to a lack of judgment? It’s inviting people to say, “Okay, you have this child inside you somewhere. Regard this child almost from a distance, with compassion, and look at the child without judgment? Look at these other pieces which might be more difficult, also without judgment? Is the lack of judgment a big piece of it?
施瓦茨：只是其中的一部分。我不會說，“你心裡有這個孩子。我們去找她吧。” 我會說，“專注於恐懼。在你的身體裡找到它，看看你能不能對它產生好奇，然後問問它想讓你知道什麼。” 然後人們會自發地看到一個孩子，或者他們可能會看到一隻動物。他們會看到一些恐懼的形象。然後我會幫助他們對它產生同情心，等等。從某種意義上說，這是非常非指導性的。只是幫助他們對裡面有什麼感到好奇，然後，一旦他們知道裡面有什麼，就對它充滿同情心，並以一種富有同情心的方式與它聯繫起來。
Schwartz: Just one piece of it. I don’t say, “You have this child inside of you. Let’s go find her.” I would say, “Focus on the fear. Find it in your body, and see if you can get curious about it, and then ask what it wants you to know.” And then people spontaneously will either see a child, or they might see an animal. They’ll see some image of the fear. Then I’ll help them get compassionate toward it, and so on. It’s very non-directive, in a sense. Just helping them get curious about what’s in there, and then, once they learn what’s in there, get compassionate about it and relate to it in a compassionate way.
Biancolli：所以它更開放。
Biancolli: So it’s more open-ended.
施瓦茨：是的。
Schwartz: Yes.
Biancolli：跟隨他們的領導。
Biancolli: Following their leads.
施瓦茨：沒錯。
Schwartz: Exactly.
Biancolli：你能談談你自己的“哈哈”時刻——起源故事嗎？你是怎麼來到IFS的？
Biancolli: Could you speak a little bit to your own a-ha moment—the origin story? How you came to IFS?
施瓦茨：我接受過家庭治療師的培訓。我有這方面的博士學位。我在精神病學領域工作，我非常渴望證明家庭治療已經找到了聖杯。我決定對暴食症進行一項結果研究，並與一位同事一起圍捕了 30 名暴食症兒童及其家人——令我沮喪的是，我發現直接的家庭療法並沒有起到多大作用。
Schwartz: I was trained as a family therapist. I have a PhD in that. I was working in a psychiatric context, and I was very eager to prove that family therapy had found the holy grail. I decided to do an outcome study with bulimia, and with a colleague, rounded up 30 bulimic kids and their families—and found, to my frustration, that straight family therapy didn’t do much.
出於那種挫敗感，我開始詢問他們內心到底發生了什麼，他們開始教我這個。因為他們會談論當他們的生活中發生了不好的事情時，這個批評者會開始攻擊他們並罵他們——這會帶來一個讓他們年輕、感到空虛、孤獨和一文不值的角色。這種感覺是如此令人痛苦，以至於狂熱的情緒將他們帶離它。但是狂歡的行為會讓批評者回來，然後那當然會讓那種毫無價值的東西回來，然後這會讓狂歡需要回來。
Out of that frustration, I began asking what was actually going on inside of them, and they started teaching this to me. Because they would talk about how when something bad happened in their lives, this critic would start to attack them and call them names—and that would bring up a part that could make them young, and feel empty and alone and worthless. That feeling was so distressing that in came the binge to take them away from it. But the act of the binge would bring the critic back, and then that would, of course, make that worthlessness come back, and then that would make the need for the binge to come back.
作為家庭治療的系統思考者，這聽起來很熟悉——聽起來像是人們陷入的惡性循環之一。所以我很感興趣，最初犯了一個錯誤，試圖與批評者抗爭，試圖控制狂歡。即使孩子們變得更糟，我也一直這樣做。
As a systems thinker from family therapy, this sounded familiar—it sounded like one of these vicious cycles that people get caught up in. So I got very intrigued, and initially made the mistake of trying to fight with the critic, and trying to control the binge. I kept doing that even though kids were getting worse.
然後我有一個客戶，除了暴飲暴食和清洗之外，她還割傷了自己的手腕——這對我來說太可怕了，有人在我的手錶上這樣做。所以有一次，我決定不讓她離開我的辦公室，直到剪輯部分同意不這樣做，所以我們都糾纏了幾個小時。最後它說：“我不會。好的。”
Then I had a client who, in addition to bingeing and purging, cut herself on her wrists—and that was so dreadful to me to have somebody doing that on my watch. So one session, I decided I wasn’t going to let her leave my office until the cutting part had agreed not to do it, and so we both badgered the part for a couple hours. It finally said, “I won’t. Okay.”
然後她在下一個療程中回來，臉上有一個大傷口。我不由的情緒崩潰了，我只好說：“我放棄，這點我打不過你。” 這部分說，“好吧，我真的不想打敗你。”
Then she came back in the next session and had a big gash down the side of her face. I spontaneously just collapsed emotionally, and I just said, “I give up, I can’t beat you at this.” And the part said, “Well, I don’t really want to beat you.”
那是這項工作歷史上的一個轉折點，因為我從我的強迫部分轉變為只是好奇，只是說，“好吧，那你為什麼要這樣對她？” 它繼續告訴我一個故事，當她受到性虐待時，它必須讓她離開她的身體，並且它必須控制會讓她受到更多虐待的憤怒。
That was a turning point in the history of this work, because I shifted from that coercive part of me to just being curious and just said, “Okay, then why do you do this to her?” And it proceeded to tell me the story of how, when she was being sexually abused, it had to get her out of her body, and it had to contain the rage that would get her more abuse.
現在我不僅好奇，而且對它在她生活中所扮演的角色有著持久的欣賞，我可以將這一點傳達給她。它淚流滿面，因為每個人都妖魔化了它，想要擺脫它，它更多地談論它還需要這樣做。但事實上，我很清楚這不是活在當下，因為她現在的環境並不危險。她六七歲的時候真的還活著，被虐待。
Now I’m not just curious, but I have an abiding appreciation for the role it played in her life, and I could convey that to her part. It broke into tears, because everyone had demonized and tried to get rid of it, and it talked more about how it still needed to do this. But as it did, it was clear to me it wasn’t living in the present, because her present context wasn’t dangerous. It was really still living back when she was six or seven, getting abused.
所以有了這一切，我才開始嘗試試錯：好的，我們怎樣才能改變這些東西呢？而不是來自強制的地方，更多的是好奇。如果我為任何事情感到自豪，那就是我允許我的客戶教給我所有這些，並且很幸運有一些客戶可以在我走錯方向時真正糾正我。
So with all of that, I just started to experiment with trial and error: Okay, how can we change some of this stuff? And not from a coercive place, more just curious. If I’m proud of anything, it’s that I allowed my clients to teach all this to me, and lucky to have some clients who could really straighten me out when I was going off in the wrong direction.
Biancolli：你剛才提到了你的強制部分。你有什麼來了解你自己的？你有給自己應用過IFS嗎？你有過哪些頓悟？
Biancolli: You just mentioned your coercive part. What have you come to learn about yourself? Have you applied IFS to yourself? What are the epiphanies you’ve had?
施瓦茨：首先，我有一個“自我”——這對我來說也是新聞。而且我還擁有所有這些部分，這些部分一直在運行我的生活，這些部分基於我自己的一些創傷，這些創傷阻礙了我的生活。他們中的一些人在某種程度上促使我創造了這個，因為我帶著很多毫無價值的感覺離開了我的家庭，並且不得不證明我的存在是正當的。他們幫助我忍受了我在嘗試帶來這種新範式時遇到的所有挑戰。
Schwartz: First of all, that I have a “Self”—that was news to me, too. And that I also had all these parts that had been running my life that were based on some of my own traumas that were getting in the way. Some of them sort of goaded me into creating this, because I came out of my family with a lot of worthless feelings and had to justify my existence. They helped me put up with all the slings and arrows I encountered trying to bring this new paradigm.
然後有些部分會妨礙客戶，因為我可能在小時候就被診斷為多動症，所以有時很難保持真正的專注，我會對客戶分心，或者對客戶感到厭煩. 我很幸運，再次有客戶會打電話給我。如果我為此感到自豪，我會擁有它，我會說，“你是對的，有一部分讓我失望了。我會為此努力的。” 所以我的主要工作就是成為一個更清晰的容器來實現這一點，讓我的自我遠離障礙，讓我的所有部分讓我以一種更自我主導的方式領導。
Then there were parts that would get in the way with clients, because I probably would have been diagnosed ADHD as a child, and so it was hard to maintain a real focus sometimes, and I’d be distracted with clients, or bored with clients. I was lucky, again, to have clients who would call me on that. If I’m proud of anything about that, I would own it and I’d say, “You’re right, there’s a part that took me out. I’m going to work on that.” So my main job was just to become a clearer vessel for bringing this, and get my ego out of the way, and all of my parts to let me lead in a more Self-led way.
Biancolli：回到疾病模型，一個是我們只有一個頭腦的想法：在書中，你稱之為“單一頭腦”。然後有一個想法，簡單地被貼上標籤會讓你感覺不到。這基本上是你在做什麼？你在挑戰那個並說，不，你的工作不是給你的客戶貼標籤。你試圖理解他們，從他們那裡得到提示，傾聽他們。
Biancolli: Getting back again to the disease model, one is the idea that we just have one mind: In the book, you call it the “mono-mind.” Then there’s this idea that simply getting labeled makes you feel less-than. Is that essentially what you’re doing? You’re challenging that and saying, no, your job isn’t to slap a label on your clients. You’re trying to understand them, take cues from them, listen to them.
施瓦茨：是的。病理標籤往往會嚇到治療師，並引導他們採取更多的醫療干預措施，而且沒有必要。我發現 DSM 準確地描述了主要只是保護部件的集群，這些部件在不同的人身上以不同的方式組織起來。如果你這樣想他們，那麼你會帶著好奇心接近他們，你會了解他們是如何試圖保護他們的，你會尊重他們的服務，就像你做的那樣軍隊，而不是稱他們為病態的名字並試圖擺脫他們。
Schwartz: Yes. The pathological label tends to scare therapists and leads them toward more medical kinds of interventions, and isn’t necessary. I find that the DSM is an accurate description of what are mainly just clusters of protective parts that organize in different ways in different people. If you think of them that way, then you’re going to approach them with curiosity, and you’re going to learn how they’re trying to protect, and you’re going to honor them for their service, like you do the military, rather than call them pathological names and try to get rid of them.
Biancolli：我聽過人們用創傷來形容它：不要問“你怎麼了？” 但是“你怎麼了？” 這實質上是 IFS 想要做的嗎？
Biancolli: There’s a way that I’ve heard people phrase it in terms of trauma: to ask not “what’s wrong with you?” but “what happened to you?” Is that in essence what IFS is trying to do?
施瓦茨：是的。我的意思是，我們經常將所有這些症狀歸結為創傷的產物——並非總是如此——如果這就是你的意思的話。是的，基本上，這是人們受到傷害然後被遺棄後內部系統的組織方式。因為受到創傷是一回事，但最有害的部分是後果，你將受傷的部分鎖起來，然後試圖遠離它們。幾乎我們文化中的每個人都被教導要這樣做，如果你有很多“流放者”，就像我說的那樣，你將需要很多會導致症狀的極端“保護者”。
Schwartz: Yes. I mean, we are framing all these symptoms as often the product of trauma—not always—if that’s what you mean. Yes, it’s the way inner systems organize after people have been hurt and then abandoned, basically. Because it’s one thing to get traumatized, but then the most pernicious part is the aftermath, where you lock away the parts that got hurt and try to stay away from them from that point after. Virtually everybody in our culture is taught to do that, and if you have a lot of “exiles,” like I said, you’re going to need a lot of extreme “protectors” that cause symptoms.
Biancolli：你寫《No Bad Parts 》的目的是什麼？你是否有使命感——想要用這些想法傳播信息？
Biancolli: What were your goals in writing No Bad Parts? And do you have a sense of mission—of wanting to spread the word with these ideas?
施瓦茨：是的，那是我的目標。在我職業生涯的大部分時間裡，我一直專注於培訓治療師，並且在這方面相當成功，現在是時候嘗試改變文化了。這是一個可以對我們的文化產生重大改變的範式，所以我的目標是開始這個過程，將它更多地帶給公眾。
Schwartz: Yes, that was my goal. I had been focused for most of my career on training therapists and been fairly successful on that, and it just feels like time to try and change the culture. This is a paradigm that could make a big change in our culture, and so my goal was to begin that process of bringing it more to the public.
Biancolli：你也在為調解員、解決衝突做培訓工作，據我了解，有一個國際部分，一個政策部分。這是改變我們彼此關係的更廣泛努力的一部分嗎？
Biancolli: You’re also doing training work for mediators, for conflict resolution, and from what I understand, there’s an international component, a policy component. Is this part of a wider effort to change how we relate to each other?
施瓦茨：非常，是的。我想說，在過去的十年裡，我決定，它有點自發地發生，試圖把它帶到更高層次的系統，而不僅僅是心理治療。我有很多不同的機會來做這件事，所以在這個方向上有很多不同的項目。
Schwartz: Very much, yes. I’d say in the last decade I decided, and it sort of happened spontaneously, to try and bring it to higher levels of system and not just to psychotherapy. I’ve had a number of different opportunities to do that, and so there are a lot of different projects in that direction.
Biancolli： 這種方法讓我想起了聽覺網絡，即人們聽到聲音而不試圖壓制它們的整個運動——試著傾聽它們並向它們學習。你看到平行線了嗎？
Biancolli: The approach reminded me of the Hearing Voices Network, that whole movement of people who hear voices and don’t try to suppress them—try to listen to them and learn from them. Do you see a parallel?
施瓦茨：非常喜歡。我是那個網絡的支持者。我沒有積極參與，但我會說他們以類似的方式理解聲音，而不是害怕他們或與他們打架，他們學會了傾聽，這是一個很好的第一步。它不一定能治愈他們的系統，但至少你不會像大多數人開始“聽到聲音”時那樣在內部極化——因為聲音通常是這些部分之一。它只需要被傾聽並從過去卡住的地方帶出來。
Schwartz: Very much. I’m a supporter of that network. I haven’t been actively involved, but I would say they understand the voices in a similar way, and instead of being afraid of them or fighting with them, they’ve learned to listen, which is a good first step. It doesn’t necessarily heal their systems, but at least you’re not polarizing inside the way most people do when they start to “hear voices”—because the voice is usually one of these parts. It just needs to be listened to and brought out from where it’s stuck in the past.
Biancolli：您有時還提到了內部管弦樂隊——讓不同的音樂家演奏不同的樂器，或在合唱團中演唱不同的部分。當你和其他人一起創作音樂時，你在聽，你必須合作，否則它就會分崩離析。
Biancolli: You also refer, at one point, to an inner orchestra—having different musicians playing different instruments, or singing different parts in a choir. When you’re making music with other people, you’re listening, and you have to cooperate or it falls apart.
施瓦茨：是的。
Schwartz: Yes.
Biancolli：我覺得這是一個非常有趣的類比——如果我錯了，請糾正我，但你也幾乎要求我們從文學意義上看一下我們的不同部分。或者這是在推動它？
Biancolli: That struck me as a really interesting analogy—and correct me if I’m wrong, but you’re also almost asking us to take a look at our different parts in a literary sense. Or is that pushing it?
施瓦茨：你在文學意義上是什麼意思？
Schwartz: What do you mean in a literary sense?
Biancolli：例如，我最喜歡的書是《戰爭與和平》。我喜歡家庭的動態，所有的部分都彈出來，你幾乎可以通過從上面看來理解它們。我想知道在某種程度上說我們有這些部分是不是太過分了。我們都帶著一個故事，一個戰爭與和平。
Biancolli: For instance, my favorite book is War and Peace. I love the family dynamics, and all the parts pop out, and you understand them almost by looking from above. I wondered whether it’s too much to say that, in a way, we have those parts inside of us. We’re all carrying around a story, a War and Peace.
施瓦茨：是的。這很貼切。我喜歡這個比喻，是的：作為讀者，你只是在觀察。有了這樣的書，你對一些角色有一些判斷，但主要是你只是在看故事的展開。所以這是一個很好的第一步，與這些部分保持一定的距離，注意它們之間的關係，並從一個正念接受的地方去做。但同樣，這只是第一步。所以我試圖用 IFS 做的就是說，看著受苦的眾生遊行並不是完全富有同情心的。即使你接受他們，他們也需要得到幫助，而且你有足夠的資金去做。
Schwartz: Yes. That’s very apt. I like the metaphor, and yes: You, as the reader, are just observing. With a book like that, you have some judgments about some of the characters, but mainly you’re just kind of watching the story unfold. So that is a good first step, is getting some distance from these parts and noticing how they relate to each other, and doing it from a place of mindful acceptance. But again, that’s just the first step. So what I try to do with IFS is say, it’s not totally compassionate to watch suffering beings parade by. Even if you’re accepting them, they need to be helped, and you have the wherewithal to do that.
Biancolli：有沒有讓你感到驚訝？您有時仍然感到驚訝，還是仍然有見解？
Biancolli: Has any of this surprised you? Are you still surprised sometimes, or are you still having insights?
施瓦茨：是的。這就是我被賦予帶來的這份禮物的美妙之處。它非常有趣和冒險。這是一個不斷學習的過程，並將繼續如此。我仍在學習使用這些系統的新方法。我正在學習有關零件的新事物，並且正在學習使用自己的新方法或學習需要使用的新零件。這麼說吧。這可能是一次冒險。
Schwartz: Yes. That’s the wonderful thing about this gift I’ve been given to bring. It’s been amazingly entertaining and adventurous. It’s been a constant learning process, and continues to be. I’m still learning new ways to work with the systems. I’m learning new things about parts, and I’m learning new ways to work with my own—or learning about new parts I need to work with. Put it that way. It can be quite an adventure.
Biancolli：這是你書中的一句話：“你的內心世界是真實的。[…] 他們是存在於內在家庭中的內在生物。” 你遇到過阻力嗎？有多少人會說，“是的，不，對不起，我做不到”？
Biancolli: This is a quote from your book: “Your inner world is real. […] They are inner beings who exist in inner families.” Have you met resistance with that? How often does somebody say, “Yeah, no, sorry, I can’t do that”?
施瓦茨：不像我剛開始那樣頻繁。這幾乎總是反應，我也為此感到內疚。我開始使用零件，但假設它們只是不同思想和衝動的隱喻等等。我去聽了一位名叫 Sandra Watanabe 的女士的談話，她當時開發了一種叫做“人物內心演員”的東西，她在談論他們，就好像他們是真的一樣。我走到她跟前說：“你真的不認為這些是真的，是嗎？” 她說：“不，它們非常真實。” 我走開時想，多麼天真。
Schwartz: Not nearly as often as it did as I was starting out. That was almost always the reaction, and I was guilty of it, too. I started to work with parts, but assumed that they were just metaphors for different thoughts and impulses and so on. I went to hear a woman named Sandra Watanabe talk, who had developed something called the “Inner Cast of Characters” back then, and she was talking about them as if they were real. I came up to her and said, “You don’t really think these are real, do you?” She said, “No, they’re very real.” And I walked away thinking, how naive.
幾年後，我也完全相信他們的現實——從那以後一直如此。
Then a few years later, I was totally convinced of their reality, too—and have been ever since.
在這種範式中很難推銷，部分原因是多樣性已經如此病態化，就像我們一直在說的那樣。要么你瘋了，你有部分，你聽到聲音，你有多重人格障礙 – 或者你只有一個想法，只是有不同的想法。中間沒有。
And it is a tough sell in this paradigm, partly because multiplicity has been so pathologized, like we’ve been saying. That either you’re crazy and you have parts, you hear voices, you have multiple personality disorder—or you have this one mind that just has different thoughts. There’s no in between.
Biancolli：改變範式需要什麼——無論是使用 IFS，還是使用任何其他方法？一般來說，要改變這種情況需要什麼？
Biancolli: What will it take to change the paradigm—whether with IFS, or with any other approach? In general, what will it take for that to change?
施瓦茨：似乎人們非常非常懷疑。一旦他們嘗試過，一旦他們真正進入這些內心世界，不是所有人，而是很多人真的可以快速轉變。因為當他們進入那裡時，它是如此真實。一種方法是嘗試讓越來越多的人嘗試它，這實際上已經成功了。我的意思是，IFS 已經變得非常、非常受歡迎和有影響力，因為最後，很多人都嘗試過它。
Schwartz: It does seem people are very, very skeptical. Once they try it, and once they actually enter these inner worlds, not all but many of them really can shift fast. Because it is so real when they get in there. One approach has been to just try and get more and more people to try it, and that actually has panned out. I mean, IFS has become very, very popular and influential because, finally, lots of people have tried it.
然後另一種方法是嘗試進行大量研究，特別是對於傳統模型不太幸運的困難人群。如果我能證明我們有這些驚人的結果，那麼就會激起人們對該領域傳統堡壘的興趣——即使他們不想認為這是真實的，因為他們非常渴望找到有效的這些問題的解決方案。例如，我一直在與華盛頓州的一位州參議員討論 IFS 和家庭暴力的結果研究，因為他們幾乎放棄了對家庭暴力的治療，因為他們使用的模型被證明是一文不值。但如果我能證明我們實際上可以改變這一點，因為這是許多其他問題的根源，那麼人們就會感興趣。
Then the other approach has been to try and do a lot of research, particularly with difficult populations that traditional models don’t have much luck with. If I can show that we have these amazing results, then that’ll pique the interest—even if they don’t want to think of it as real—of the traditional bastions of the field, because they’re so desperate to find effective solutions to these problems. I’ve been talking to a state senator in Washington State about doing an outcome study with IFS and domestic violence, for example, because they’ve pretty much given up on treatment for domestic violence, because the model they were using was proven to be worthless. But if I can show that we can actually change that, because that’s the root of so many other issues, then people get interested.
Biancolli：你在書中談到的另一件事是我們對罪惡的痴迷，以及某人天生就是錯誤的想法。這也是人們難以克服的事情嗎？
Biancolli: Something else you talked about in the book was this obsession we have as a culture with sin, and the idea of somebody being innately wrong. Is that also something that people have a hard time overcoming?
施瓦茨：是的。特別是有宗教信仰的人有麻煩。但這種對人的看法，對我們的文化產生了很大的影響，認為我們內心存在罪惡和邪惡——我不否認，因為很多這些“負擔”都符合條件。但它們不是零件，然後零件被誤認為是邪惡的衝動。因此，與其試圖治愈那個部分，不如試著把它扔掉——帶著洗澡水的嬰兒。這就是我想要澄清的。
Schwartz: Yes. Particularly religious people have trouble. But that view of people, it’s had a big influence on our culture, the idea that there is sin and evil inside of us—which I don’t deny, because a lot of these “burdens” would qualify. But they aren’t the parts, and then the parts get misidentified as the evil impulse. So instead of trying to heal the part, you try to throw it out—the baby with the bathwater. So that’s what I’m trying to clarify.
Biancolli：我也對你書中的練習很感興趣，這些練習鼓勵人們觀察他們的內在部分，了解他們的內在部分，在某些情況下觀察一個容易被觸發的內在部分。你有沒有收到對此做出回應的讀者？你有得到任何反饋嗎？
Biancolli: I’m also interested in the exercises you have in your book encouraging people to observe their inner parts, understand their inner parts, and in some cases observe an inner part who tends to get triggered. Have you heard from readers who’ve responded to that? Have you gotten any feedback?
施瓦茨：是的。人們似乎能夠做到。有些人會得到有聲讀物版本，因為他們需要在練習時聽。但是很多人，我很驚訝，可以通過閱讀書中的練習來做到這一點。我真的不知道這會被公眾接受到什麼程度，我感到非常振奮。我的意思是，如果你只看亞馬遜上的反饋，那麼很多人說他們的生活已經改變了僅僅通過閱讀這本書和嘗試練習。
Schwartz: Yes. People seem to be able to do it. Some people get the audiobook version because they need to listen while they do the exercise. But a lot of people, I was amazed, could just do it from reading the exercises in the book. I really had no idea how well this would be received by the public, and I’ve been very heartened. I mean, if you just look on Amazon at the feedback, so many people say their life’s been changed just by reading the book and trying the exercises.
Biancolli：我還對“內在物理定律”以及如果你只是要求一個部分不要壓倒它的想法也很好奇。即使是最黑暗的部分，您也不必害怕。你可以要求它不要壓倒它，它會配合。
Biancolli: I was additionally curious about the “laws of inner physics” and the idea that if you simply ask a part not to overwhelm, that it won’t. That you don’t have to be afraid even of the darkest part. You can just ask it not to overwhelm, and it cooperates.
Schwartz：如果他們認為這符合他們的最大利益。你必須讓他們相信，不要壓倒他們最符合他們的利益。是的。
Schwartz: If they think it’s in their best interest. You’ve got to convince them that it’s in their best interest to not overwhelm. Yes.
Biancolli：達到那個點需要一段時間嗎？
Biancolli: Does it take a while to reach that point?
施瓦茨：通常不會。假設我們正在與一個帶著很多痛苦的流放者一起工作，而客戶抱怨——因為每當她打開門時，她就會不知所措，一個星期都不能起床，或者其他什麼。我會說，好吧，讓我們談談那部分。
我會說，“你確實傾向於壓倒她？那正確嗎？”
“是的。”
“好的。如果你不這樣做，你害怕會發生什麼？”
“好吧，她會再把我關起來的。”
“如果我們能讓她同意不再把你關起來，而是聽你的話，你會完全接管那種方式嗎？”
他們幾乎總是說，“不。但我認為你不能讓她同意。她太討厭我了。”
我會說，“好吧，我會確保她不會。她聽你的。但要做到這一點，我真的需要你不要完全接管。”
如果他們認為這符合他們的最大利益，那麼他們就不需要接管。所以這是另一種方式，如果你能把它們想像成有情眾生——它們就是——這一切都是可以商量的。你幾乎可以談判任何事情。
Biancolli：你可以和他們進行對話。
施瓦茨：是的。
Biancolli：正如你所說，這不僅僅是心理健康，而是圍繞我們是誰的更廣泛的對話。這聽起來很簡單，但歸根結底，這對我們很多人來說並不容易，不是嗎？
施瓦茨：不，這並不容易——因為我們已經被社會化到了相反的想法。在會議上這是一個艱難的推銷，但一旦人們養成了它的習慣，它就會變得容易得多。但通常，到那個時候，他們已經放逐了很多東西，所以我們要做很多工作才能把它帶回來。
艾米·比安科利Amy Biancolli 是 Mad in America 的特約記者。作為一名記者，擁有數十年為奧爾巴尼時報聯盟、休斯頓紀事報和赫斯特報紙撰寫有關藝術、文化、電影和其他主題的經驗，她也是三本書的作者——其中兩本是關於失落和悲傷的回憶錄。她最近出版的《弄清楚大便：愛、笑聲、自殺和生存》（ 2014 年，Behler Publications ） 是對她丈夫、作家克里斯托弗·D·林沃爾德 (Christopher D. Ringwald) 自殺後一年的記述。她畢業於漢密爾頓學院和哥倫比亞大學新聞研究生院。